Revolutionizing Fleet Management: A Masterclass with Rick Bell

Join us on this episode of Mile Marker as we sit down with Rick Bell, managing partner at the Merlin Group and a trailblazer in fleet management and last-mile solutions. From his strategic roles at Merchants Fleet to founding Merlin Group, Rick shares insights on innovative approaches in both ICE and EV platforms, the evolution of fleet management, and the importance of flexibility and collaboration. Discover how Rick’s military background influences his leadership and his vision for the future of fleet operations. Don’t miss this engaging discussion on the transformative potential within the industry.

https://ridecell.com/
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Transcript

WEBVTT - This file was automatically generated and edited to improve accuracy.

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You are listening to the Mile Marker Podcast,

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where we explore trends and innovations in fleet automation

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and shared mobility, helping fleet based businesses make

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better informed decisions

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and achieve full digital transformation.

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Welcome Everyone to the Mile Marker podcast.

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I'm your host, Angela Simoes.

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And today our guest is Rick Bell,

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managing partner at the Merlin Group,

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a business consulting and services company.

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Rick is an innovative thinker of builder of solutions,

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and he has designed and executed

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national last mile solutions

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for tier one major e-commerce companies in both ICE

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and EV platforms.

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Before establishing Merlin Group,

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Rick held strategic senior roles at Merchants Fleet

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where he engaged with clients

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to develop innovative fleet management strategies

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and programs and identified opportunities

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for efficient value added solutions.

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Rick is a decorated veteran

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of the United States Army Infantry,

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and he was deployed multiple times in support

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of Operation Iraqi Freedom

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and served as instructor at the Officer Candidate

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School. Welcome, Rick.

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Well, thank you so much. I'm very happy

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to be here. Appreciate it. And

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No, and thank you, sir, for your service very much.

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And from the Ridecell side, we have, Mark Thomas, EVP

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of Strategic Alliances. Welcome, Mark.

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Thanks, Angela. So Rick,

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you have pretty extensive experience in the fleet world.

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Can you give us a brief overview of your background

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and, you know, where, where you used to focus

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and now how you came

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to establish Merlin Group and what you're doing now?

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Yeah, sure. So I was

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with Merchants back in the early two thousands.

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Merchants Rent-a-Car at the time,

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and, um, you know, even back then,

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Merchants Rent-a-Car was very integrated

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with the Fleet platform.

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Many of the vehicles we were, we would receive in

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in the rental car division may have been former leases,

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and oftentimes our vehicles would

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sometimes be pulled into leases.

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So that was kind of the early precursor to that kind

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of dynamic, fleet integration

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that we saw many years later.

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After my, my return from the the military, I came back

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to Merchants Fleet

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and, um, the Rental car division was, was gone

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and we were short term solutions, eventually mobility.

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And, um, over the course of the better part

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of the last decade, we really worked to refine

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and define what became, I think,

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operational mobility in the fleet space.

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We worked closer together with our, our fleet partners

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inside the organization.

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And I think we consistently,

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uncovered opportunities

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and flexible solutions that attracted some

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of the major clients that we eventually brought on board.

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And, you know,

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and then, you know, that it led to opportunities

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and it led to really insights that I think are unique

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and, and different.

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But I'll, I'll, I'll stop there. And

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Just, just for clarification, can you define mobility

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and talk about just a bit about how

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that's different from the classic business model?

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Yeah, Mark, that's, that's a great question.

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So, that's a hard question to answer, right?

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So I think with, with my previous company, we referred to

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as the move, the free movement of people,

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people, personnel and goods and services responsibly.

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And I think that sounds great

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and that's, that's, that's true,

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but mobility really is about capabilities.

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Um, we often hear the word tossed around quite a bit,

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but mobility is being able to be flexible

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with your actual assets, leverage those assets

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to solve problems for clients.

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Um, is is really just one leg of the stool.

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Mobility really is finding solutions

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that may fall outside of your traditional competencies.

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I like to refer to as the confluence of

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capability, technology

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and need, you know, the capability could be the

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myself or the, or the company.

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The need is the client

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and the technology could be a third party that we leverage

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to solve problems, but it is, 

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it's a hard thing to define.

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I think it's, um, it really sets, starts

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and ends with the mindset mobility.

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You never say no, that might, you might say no in the end,

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but it, it's not part of the, the first 10 or 20 solutions.

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No. Isn't something we, we say often.

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Are there any labels that you would put on it, uh, that,

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that we're more familiar with?

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Um, is it car sharing? Is it rental?

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Is it, what, what are the subscription? What Yeah.

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Do these things fall within or are those more traditional?

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So no, those, those certainly fall within, um,

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mobility is gonna be a matter of,

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of leveraging your capabilities

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and capabilities go all the way to how you,

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you finance your fleet, your assets, uh,

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how you leverage your partnerships and your relationships.

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Mobility isn't my belief

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and what I think has been successful.

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It isn't a single party system.

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It isn't, it isn't just one or two.

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It's what it takes to get the job done.

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We look at EV and the, the struggles with adoption,

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and really, uh, pushing those programs forward.

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That's gonna take,

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and it has taken more than one partner. Flexible.

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Innovative, out of the box thinking. Though

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all those things are part of mobility,

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they're, they're catchphrases, but they are true.

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And you have to be true in the execution

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as opposed just the, the verbiage.

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So I think it's a, it's a good, um, way

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to look at the industry in, in general in terms of,

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you know, so you're saying like, the definition

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of mobility is changing, and that's

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because like the market is changing

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and you're seeing new partnerships, new collaborations,

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like things that people maybe wouldn't have anticipated.

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Right? Um, and so to that point,

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and you've kind of hinted at this already,

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but where do you see the biggest need in the fleet industry?

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And you talked about things like flexibility, innovation,

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and collaboration, but can we deep dive on some of those,

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and maybe you have some examples, uh, that you can share

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that, um, exhibit what that actually means?

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Well, let's, let's first

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talk a little bit about the fleet,

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the fleet industry, the fleet management industry.

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You know, my last company did a remarkable job of kind

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of breaking the mold, starting with, you know,

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really in 2017, uh, redefining what it means

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to be fleet management, uh, truly being innovative.

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Um, you know, we built a massive portfolio

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of owned assets from, you know, class two, right

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through Class eight, that gave us incredible, uh,

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opportunity and options when we went to sit down

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with the largest companies in the country

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and said, Hey, we can do some unique and different things

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because we own these vehicles.

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Um, when you look at fleet manage in fleet management

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industry, it's the, the real question is there,

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is there the cause for change, right?

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Is there, is the case been made for the larger, uh, largest

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FMCs to really change the way they're doing things?

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I think that the, the industry is, as we've seen, they are,

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um, it's downside.

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I mean, we're, the companies are, are eliminating

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where we have mergers and acquisitions and things like that.

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And then I think we have a retrenchment

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of those traditional ideas in fleet management.

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So the real question is, can the case be made

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for a flexible dynamic mobility, not just

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where my previous company did a great job,

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but in true action and

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and execution for throughout the industry.

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Um, that's an open question.

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I think, I think you have a challenge that there's a lot of,

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there's a lot of below the surface items

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that go into being able to be truly flexible

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and solution oriented. Comes to financing

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how you finance your fleet, your ABLs ABSs, it comes down to

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how much of your fleet do you own?

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Uh, what are your operational capabilities?

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So if you think of traditional fleet management companies

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saying, Hey, we're gonna place, uh, 10,000 orders

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for a pharmaceutical company.

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Well, they place those orders

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and the pharmaceutical company gets their cars.

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There may be some up outfits or whatever it might be.

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And it's, it's all very static and, and routine.

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Well, could you imagine those 10,000 vehicles

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being in an owned asset portfolio where

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that fleet management company has to take those assets back

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after maybe five or six months, they have

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to recondition those assets, redeploy those

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with another major pharmaceutical company.

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There's cost, there's capabilities, there's teams, there's,

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there's so much involved in that.

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And I think the real question is, you know, is it,

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is it the fear of that, that challenge

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that we don't see true mobility spreading across

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more companies in the fleet management industry?

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We know, we know that the largest providers

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and you know, the largest companies in the United States,

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the Amazons, the FedEx, the UPSs, the Teslas, the Walmarts

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and the Targets, they're all starving

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for these types of solutions.

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The real question is, well, why,

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why aren't the fleet management companies rushing in there

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and saying, "Hey, we can do this."

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As opposed to saying, "Hey,

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I can order your vehicles for you.

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I can provide you a maintenance plan,

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I can give you some accident management."

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You know, that's

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a pile of vanilla ice cream.

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I think really the, the clients are asking for Rocky Road,

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But this would be more like being able to account

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for seasonality, uh, or spikes in demand

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and having vehicles that they have access to, either

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for short term or for, for a season

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rather than a longer term commitment?

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Oh, yeah, very true. I mean, also if you look to like a,

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a more, what I like to call a dynamic fleet integration, uh,

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a large provider or something, uh, like, um, any,

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and... name any company. They,

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they have their fleet rotate in

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and those fleets rotating out, right?

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They have seasonality when you,

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when you bring partners together

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and you can bring in your new assets in certain times

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of the year to, for example, the, we'll say, peak season,

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and that's kind of the easiest

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low hanging fruit to talk about.

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But, you know, peak season, you know, volumes

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for the major e-commerce companies exceed over a hundred

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thousand temporary vehicles, uh, every season.

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So if you can work,

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and this goes back to the other question we had regarding,

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you know, 

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can multiple companies work together in common cause

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to solve a, uh, a request?

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I think the case is yes, right?

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So we've had discussions and I've had discussions

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and it's, it's kind of a passion project of mine to say,

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let me bring in some, some assets that I own in,

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in the early fall or late summer.

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Let's get those to where we need those to handle those,

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those seasonal needs, and let's rotate those into kind

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of the permanent standing fleet post, uh,

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post the holidays, post peak.

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And then we could look at the existing fleets

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that the client has and,

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and make really good decisions on which vehicles can go

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to disposition and, and when and what time that works.

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Well, that takes a couple of partners to do that.

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Uh, but if if you only have that one traditional fleet

252
00:11:05.565 --> 00:11:08.325
leasing management option in your toolbox,

253
00:11:08.395 --> 00:11:10.045
then you're not gonna really do that,

254
00:11:10.045 --> 00:11:12.005
and the client is gonna have to search for other options.

255
00:11:13.205 --> 00:11:15.205
Speaking of clients, what are the,

256
00:11:15.345 --> 00:11:18.725
the unmet client demands from their perspective?

257
00:11:19.265 --> 00:11:22.165
So you talked about FMCs having, uh, potentially needing

258
00:11:22.165 --> 00:11:23.925
to have a different solution offering,

259
00:11:24.065 --> 00:11:26.885
but tell me more about some of the pain points that you see

260
00:11:27.395 --> 00:11:29.005
typical clients may have.

261
00:11:29.755 --> 00:11:30.845
Yeah, I, you know,

262
00:11:31.085 --> 00:11:33.405
a couple stand up pretty pretty prominently.

263
00:11:33.505 --> 00:11:36.805
Uh, you know, you're looking at Upfitting time, being,

264
00:11:36.975 --> 00:11:39.125
being able to really track the progress

265
00:11:39.125 --> 00:11:41.165
of your vehicles from cradle to grave.

266
00:11:41.325 --> 00:11:43.885
I mean, there's a lot of good processes out there,

267
00:11:44.065 --> 00:11:47.205
but there's some very, there's some voids that, of course,

268
00:11:47.205 --> 00:11:50.845
when you have a void of, of visibility on the, the process..

269
00:11:50.875 --> 00:11:53.645
your vehicle moving through, it's, it's, uh, onboarding

270
00:11:53.645 --> 00:11:56.085
and upfitting and dis uh, then the delivery

271
00:11:56.185 --> 00:11:58.645
and deployment to your client, uh, that,

272
00:11:58.645 --> 00:12:01.285
that's real dollars in times that by thousands of vehicles,

273
00:12:01.285 --> 00:12:03.325
we're talking billions and billions of dollars that are,

274
00:12:03.475 --> 00:12:05.285
that are being kind of lost in the sauce.

275
00:12:05.385 --> 00:12:08.445
So there is a need, there's a real need to be able

276
00:12:08.445 --> 00:12:10.805
to understand the lifecycle of those vehicles

277
00:12:11.355 --> 00:12:13.165
more than just the high level.

278
00:12:13.595 --> 00:12:15.325
It's, here's, there, it's understanding

279
00:12:15.465 --> 00:12:18.125
how a vehicle moves within those organizations,

280
00:12:18.545 --> 00:12:22.045
the different departments, how long it might be in, uh, risk

281
00:12:22.045 --> 00:12:24.285
or credit management being evaluated,

282
00:12:24.305 --> 00:12:27.325
or has that client actually had their, their, um,

283
00:12:28.015 --> 00:12:31.245
their file reviewed lately, and then will that be a hold up?

284
00:12:31.465 --> 00:12:32.565
You know, there's a lot of things within

285
00:12:32.565 --> 00:12:33.925
organizations that they can fix.

286
00:12:34.425 --> 00:12:37.205
Um, but to know that it's a could be a potential problem is,

287
00:12:37.205 --> 00:12:39.765
is is half the battle. When you look at, let's say,

288
00:12:39.905 --> 00:12:41.205
you know, EV adoption.

289
00:12:42.225 --> 00:12:44.565
So it was real challenging.

290
00:12:44.565 --> 00:12:47.165
We talked a bit, a bit before about OEMs having

291
00:12:47.165 --> 00:12:48.525
to be really more flexible

292
00:12:48.765 --> 00:12:50.645
and innovative in their, in their offerings.

293
00:12:50.865 --> 00:12:54.965
The financial engineering for EVs is, is really fraught

294
00:12:54.965 --> 00:12:56.845
with, um, you know, danger.

295
00:12:57.395 --> 00:13:01.365
When you look at trying to incorporate, uh,

296
00:13:01.365 --> 00:13:03.125
certain vehicles, certain platforms

297
00:13:03.275 --> 00:13:05.205
with the unknown residuals in the backend,

298
00:13:05.465 --> 00:13:07.965
you're sometimes forced to write that entire vehicle down

299
00:13:07.965 --> 00:13:09.485
during, during its useful life.

300
00:13:10.025 --> 00:13:13.965
And that results in, in wildly unfavorable, um, rates and,

301
00:13:14.345 --> 00:13:15.445
and cost to the client.

302
00:13:15.985 --> 00:13:18.645
So, you know, that's an area FMCs really,

303
00:13:18.665 --> 00:13:21.485
really could use some, some of their power

304
00:13:21.545 --> 00:13:23.445
to leverage to help those clients.

305
00:13:24.025 --> 00:13:25.965
Um, you know, that's

306
00:13:26.045 --> 00:13:28.285
where it's gonna take more than just a traditional approach.

307
00:13:28.355 --> 00:13:30.525
It's gonna take multiple pla.. people

308
00:13:30.585 --> 00:13:33.285
and companies coming together to say, Hey, if we really,

309
00:13:33.285 --> 00:13:35.685
really want to go green, we want a sustainable future,

310
00:13:35.975 --> 00:13:37.045
we're gonna have to work together.

311
00:13:37.505 --> 00:13:40.405
And that starts with not just innovative out

312
00:13:40.405 --> 00:13:42.565
of the box solutions on renting or leasing vehicles

313
00:13:43.025 --> 00:13:45.285
or bold actions by a client saying,

314
00:13:45.285 --> 00:13:46.605
we're gonna invest in infrastructure.

315
00:13:47.145 --> 00:13:49.205
It, it takes the, from the very beginning,

316
00:13:49.205 --> 00:13:51.445
when you're looking to set up your, your financing

317
00:13:51.445 --> 00:13:53.445
and you're looking at your, your CFO and,

318
00:13:53.445 --> 00:13:55.685
and the finance team, they have to be as innovative

319
00:13:55.825 --> 00:13:57.605
as everybody else in the organization.

320
00:13:58.065 --> 00:14:01.885
You can't apply a traditional finance model to, um,

321
00:14:02.625 --> 00:14:06.085
the situation with, let's say, EVs and mobility solutions

322
00:14:06.265 --> 00:14:08.365
and expect to have results that are gonna be favorable.

323
00:14:09.425 --> 00:14:11.045
So back to some of those, uh,

324
00:14:11.155 --> 00:14:12.405
bottlenecks that you mentioned.

325
00:14:12.885 --> 00:14:15.045
Hmm. Just for, for, for companies, uh,

326
00:14:15.045 --> 00:14:16.445
maybe the end fleet customer

327
00:14:16.445 --> 00:14:20.765
who may not have visibility into how FMCs run, you know,

328
00:14:20.765 --> 00:14:24.405
what are some typical, say upfitting times or credit times

329
00:14:24.585 --> 00:14:28.325
or how, you know, times between customers

330
00:14:28.325 --> 00:14:31.005
and what are some of those, just some of those big time

331
00:14:31.925 --> 00:14:35.085
barriers, uh, that, that take time and, and money.

332
00:14:36.155 --> 00:14:40.685
Yeah. Um, certainly when, when you're placing orders, um,

333
00:14:41.635 --> 00:14:43.725
just the order, banks and,

334
00:14:43.725 --> 00:14:45.525
and the traditional, uh, delivery time

335
00:14:45.525 --> 00:14:48.125
for vehicles has been, has been wildly changing these last,

336
00:14:48.225 --> 00:14:50.645
uh, several years, we're kind of coming to more of a,

337
00:14:50.765 --> 00:14:51.765
a phase of normalcy.

338
00:14:52.265 --> 00:14:55.125
Um, but when you're talking about upfits,

339
00:14:55.155 --> 00:14:56.485
this is really, really an area

340
00:14:56.485 --> 00:14:58.325
where it is a bit of a black hole.

341
00:14:58.625 --> 00:15:01.725
And, and it's, it's a common, uh, issue with clients

342
00:15:01.825 --> 00:15:05.125
and FMCs alike that when your vehicle is ordered

343
00:15:05.125 --> 00:15:07.125
and it has to go to a upfitter

344
00:15:07.125 --> 00:15:09.685
and it's there for, who knows, two weeks, three weeks,

345
00:15:10.025 --> 00:15:11.925
it kind of falls into a, a black hole.

346
00:15:12.505 --> 00:15:14.365
And, and not having visibility or,

347
00:15:14.505 --> 00:15:17.125
or really tracking that effectively leads

348
00:15:17.125 --> 00:15:18.445
to a lot of collateral problems.

349
00:15:18.525 --> 00:15:20.405
I mean, the vehicles are not delivered on time,

350
00:15:20.465 --> 00:15:22.125
or they're ready and it's not known.

351
00:15:22.625 --> 00:15:27.365
Um, it seems simpler than it is to, to solve that problem

352
00:15:28.035 --> 00:15:30.325
when you're looking at individual clients,

353
00:15:30.325 --> 00:15:33.165
and this might be more of a mobility client, where you're,

354
00:15:33.165 --> 00:15:35.005
where you're having your assets going out.

355
00:15:35.025 --> 00:15:37.285
It might be a rental or long or short term lease,

356
00:15:37.285 --> 00:15:38.525
or a close end lease option.

357
00:15:38.995 --> 00:15:41.085
Well, if you're not staying up with your client

358
00:15:41.095 --> 00:15:43.045
where they're, where they are in terms of their,

359
00:15:43.375 --> 00:15:46.285
their credit and risk portfolio, uh, profile

360
00:15:46.485 --> 00:15:49.325
with your company, you may have a request for vehicles

361
00:15:49.325 --> 00:15:51.725
that you have on the ground that could be in revenue

362
00:15:51.725 --> 00:15:54.805
producing status, then now you're going back, you're asking

363
00:15:54.865 --> 00:15:56.805
for financials, you're looking

364
00:15:56.945 --> 00:15:59.205
for maybe additional information.

365
00:15:59.545 --> 00:16:02.285
Um, you, you could have just changed over a, a, uh,

366
00:16:02.605 --> 00:16:05.405
a fiscal year, and now those are outta date.

367
00:16:06.345 --> 00:16:09.805
The shame is oftentimes there are, there's need out there,

368
00:16:09.905 --> 00:16:13.085
and the client wants vehicles they need, uh,

369
00:16:13.145 --> 00:16:14.405
to get those into action.

370
00:16:14.865 --> 00:16:17.805
And are the processes within an organization aren't

371
00:16:17.805 --> 00:16:19.085
sharp or they're just unaware?

372
00:16:19.145 --> 00:16:22.885
So I'd say that's an area I think, um, when we're talking

373
00:16:24.085 --> 00:16:25.525
about, uh, transport, right?

374
00:16:25.675 --> 00:16:28.005
It's, it's about having a variety of transport partners.

375
00:16:28.105 --> 00:16:31.565
Now, generally, uh, FMCs drop ship locations,

376
00:16:31.565 --> 00:16:34.085
they're gonna be nearby, but once they go to, let's say,

377
00:16:34.135 --> 00:16:36.765
upfit, well now you need another transport partner, right?

378
00:16:36.765 --> 00:16:38.845
Oftentimes you get that first move to the, to the upfitter.

379
00:16:39.105 --> 00:16:42.685
So if you don't have dynamic transporting, um, and I,

380
00:16:42.825 --> 00:16:44.845
and I have a belief that oftentimes when you build

381
00:16:44.845 --> 00:16:48.065
relationships, you should start having those critical

382
00:16:48.065 --> 00:16:50.305
elements, those critical enablers, I call them part

383
00:16:50.305 --> 00:16:52.385
of your solutioning very early on.

384
00:16:52.835 --> 00:16:54.145
Don't make it an afterthought

385
00:16:54.145 --> 00:16:55.585
and say, well, I need to put this out to bid.

386
00:16:55.665 --> 00:16:58.065
I need to, I did. Let's have this as a solution.

387
00:16:58.065 --> 00:17:02.025
If I can leverage that on a ear, on a, in, in the beginning,

388
00:17:02.095 --> 00:17:03.505
then maybe I have a commitment.

389
00:17:03.585 --> 00:17:05.745
I can save days and weeks, uh,

390
00:17:05.745 --> 00:17:08.025
which translates into billions of dollars every year.

391
00:17:10.425 --> 00:17:12.085
And I'm, and I'm sure there's others,

392
00:17:12.225 --> 00:17:13.445
you know, but it's, yeah.

393
00:17:14.395 --> 00:17:16.805
Well, just based on what you have been saying,

394
00:17:17.355 --> 00:17:19.645
there's like so many different directions that I could go

395
00:17:19.645 --> 00:17:22.445
with this conversation, but I think the two main areas

396
00:17:22.445 --> 00:17:26.045
that I would love to dig into is, you know, the, the,

397
00:17:26.265 --> 00:17:30.245
the areas that you talked about in response to,

398
00:17:30.245 --> 00:17:31.645
to mark's question about what are some

399
00:17:31.645 --> 00:17:33.165
of the client demands, what are some of the things

400
00:17:33.165 --> 00:17:35.525
that they need to be doing, but they aren't doing?

401
00:17:36.225 --> 00:17:39.445
Um, is that because do they even know that

402
00:17:39.445 --> 00:17:40.645
that's what they need to be doing?

403
00:17:40.825 --> 00:17:42.405
Is it because they don't have the technology

404
00:17:42.505 --> 00:17:43.525
to be able to do that?

405
00:17:43.865 --> 00:17:45.565
Or they know the technology is out there,

406
00:17:46.065 --> 00:17:48.605
but they're not quite sure you know, how

407
00:17:48.605 --> 00:17:49.805
to start or where to go.

408
00:17:50.225 --> 00:17:53.325
And then kind of parallel to that is, you know, to

409
00:17:53.955 --> 00:17:55.165
have those kinds of insights

410
00:17:55.185 --> 00:17:57.525
and know that this is where we need

411
00:17:57.525 --> 00:18:01.565
to have better visibility, uh, to have better operations

412
00:18:01.565 --> 00:18:02.605
and take better advantage

413
00:18:02.665 --> 00:18:04.285
of some of these new opportunities.

414
00:18:05.145 --> 00:18:08.565
You have to have that open, uh, thinking

415
00:18:08.565 --> 00:18:11.165
outside the box culture in a company.

416
00:18:11.225 --> 00:18:13.445
And you, as you were talking about some of the traditional

417
00:18:13.975 --> 00:18:16.285
fleet management, uh, ways of doing things,

418
00:18:16.825 --> 00:18:18.285
um, may not work here.

419
00:18:18.345 --> 00:18:20.365
So they, they, those kind of go hand in hand, right?

420
00:18:20.385 --> 00:18:24.725
So how do you address, you know, kind of moving

421
00:18:24.825 --> 00:18:29.125
beyond this, uh, DNA of maybe not being flexible

422
00:18:29.225 --> 00:18:31.565
and adaptable and that sort of thing, how do you, um,

423
00:18:32.785 --> 00:18:34.045
what's your advice on how,

424
00:18:34.185 --> 00:18:36.445
how fleet management companies can move beyond that

425
00:18:36.665 --> 00:18:38.285
to be more flexible and dynamic

426
00:18:38.905 --> 00:18:41.525
and then adopting more, um,

427
00:18:42.745 --> 00:18:44.605
uh, flexible technologies?

428
00:18:44.945 --> 00:18:48.485
I'm, I'm not having a lot of the, uh, the words,

429
00:18:49.305 --> 00:18:52.325
the adjectives I'm looking for, whether that's, you know, AI

430
00:18:52.785 --> 00:18:55.685
or automation or all those kinds of things, right?

431
00:18:56.105 --> 00:18:57.925
So, would love to dig into that a little bit.

432
00:18:58.955 --> 00:19:01.725
Well, I, I would, I would say that, you know, there is a,

433
00:19:01.725 --> 00:19:04.165
there is, as I kind of said earlier, there's a tendency

434
00:19:04.165 --> 00:19:05.925
to retrench into kind

435
00:19:05.925 --> 00:19:07.405
of the traditional business model the

436
00:19:07.755 --> 00:19:08.845
FMCs had prior to Covid.

437
00:19:09.785 --> 00:19:12.565
And there, and, and that's normal. I guess that's normal.

438
00:19:12.765 --> 00:19:14.205
I mean, people have their comfort zones.

439
00:19:14.465 --> 00:19:16.285
One of the things with fleet, the fleet management industry,

440
00:19:16.285 --> 00:19:18.405
is that there isn't a whole lot of new DNA

441
00:19:18.915 --> 00:19:21.285
that is circulating within, within these organizations.

442
00:19:21.675 --> 00:19:23.725
It's very, um, transient.

443
00:19:23.825 --> 00:19:26.845
You have executives on various levels that move from company

444
00:19:26.905 --> 00:19:28.925
to company, and there's nothing wrong with that.

445
00:19:29.475 --> 00:19:33.165
It's, that's fine, but you, you're not really introducing

446
00:19:33.835 --> 00:19:35.605
that, that positive mutation.

447
00:19:36.145 --> 00:19:38.325
Uh, I think my previous company did a great job at that.

448
00:19:38.345 --> 00:19:40.565
We definitely have, 

449
00:19:40.755 --> 00:19:43.685
they have definitely changed the face of fleet management.

450
00:19:43.905 --> 00:19:45.845
Now, I do think there's a tendency to want to,

451
00:19:46.185 --> 00:19:47.365
uh, continue to evolve.

452
00:19:47.585 --> 00:19:50.285
And, and they, you know, there's nothing wrong with

453
00:19:50.285 --> 00:19:51.845
that either to, to move towards that,

454
00:19:52.025 --> 00:19:53.605
the gold standard of fleet management.

455
00:19:54.185 --> 00:19:57.125
But the case has to be made. The case has to be made

456
00:19:57.125 --> 00:19:59.725
that there is, uh, advantages,

457
00:19:59.725 --> 00:20:02.525
there's opportunity when you look at a, um,

458
00:20:03.365 --> 00:20:05.205
mobility solutions, when you think out of the box,

459
00:20:05.885 --> 00:20:08.365
revenues can be higher, risk is a little higher too.

460
00:20:08.505 --> 00:20:12.565
But, there is definitely, um, a need

461
00:20:12.585 --> 00:20:14.045
and a desire from the biggest,

462
00:20:14.405 --> 00:20:16.085
I keep saying the largest companies in the world,

463
00:20:16.145 --> 00:20:18.445
but some of these very large companies that really would,

464
00:20:18.445 --> 00:20:20.365
would embrace this type of partnership,

465
00:20:20.655 --> 00:20:22.165
which can elevate your business.

466
00:20:22.585 --> 00:20:25.005
So they have to be dynamic in the way they,

467
00:20:25.005 --> 00:20:26.885
they look at their, their business.

468
00:20:27.315 --> 00:20:28.685
They have to decide is,

469
00:20:29.105 --> 00:20:30.845
is it a traditional path we wanna stay on?

470
00:20:30.845 --> 00:20:32.645
Are we happy with 2 or 3% growth every year?

471
00:20:32.945 --> 00:20:35.045
Or are we gonna try to really change things?

472
00:20:35.145 --> 00:20:37.485
And I gotta tell you, tell you this, that, you know,

473
00:20:37.485 --> 00:20:39.685
if they're gonna be sustainable, if that, if that's part

474
00:20:39.685 --> 00:20:42.605
of their, if that's part of their strategic planning, that

475
00:20:43.105 --> 00:20:46.165
by the very nature, that's gonna require a whole heck

476
00:20:46.165 --> 00:20:47.690
of a lot of out of the box thinking,

477
00:20:48.025 --> 00:20:50.965
You're not gonna get there with kind of static thinking.

478
00:20:51.665 --> 00:20:53.245
Um, so I would go there.

479
00:20:53.325 --> 00:20:54.405
I, I would really say, look,

480
00:20:54.405 --> 00:20:58.165
there's some tremendous advantages, uh, economic advantages,

481
00:20:58.505 --> 00:21:01.365
um, for you as a company, uh, if you can,

482
00:21:01.745 --> 00:21:05.205
if you can brave the terrain of,

483
00:21:05.385 --> 00:21:06.845
of out, of the box thinking.

484
00:21:07.185 --> 00:21:09.845
And I said earlier too, it can't just be one

485
00:21:09.845 --> 00:21:11.205
or two people in an organization.

486
00:21:11.555 --> 00:21:13.125
It's just too much to push uphill.

487
00:21:13.465 --> 00:21:14.565
You have to have innovation

488
00:21:14.705 --> 00:21:17.965
and that spirit to be bold within your finance department,

489
00:21:17.965 --> 00:21:19.525
within your operations department.

490
00:21:19.705 --> 00:21:22.405
One of the scary things you gotta look out for is,

491
00:21:22.465 --> 00:21:25.805
is someone, maybe the mentality sometimes can be, well,

492
00:21:25.825 --> 00:21:27.005
that's a great opportunity,

493
00:21:27.025 --> 00:21:28.605
but that just makes my job harder.

494
00:21:29.105 --> 00:21:30.765
Now, that's a natural reaction.

495
00:21:30.765 --> 00:21:33.325
And I have sympathy for people that, that feel that way.

496
00:21:33.325 --> 00:21:35.085
The job does actually get harder when you're,

497
00:21:35.085 --> 00:21:37.605
when you're breaking, when you're breaking boundaries,

498
00:21:37.605 --> 00:21:39.205
and when you're elevating your business,

499
00:21:39.205 --> 00:21:40.325
everything's gonna get harder.

500
00:21:40.505 --> 00:21:44.765
But so does opportunity. Organizations, they have

501
00:21:44.765 --> 00:21:48.565
to really sell that vision inside. Rising

502
00:21:48.675 --> 00:21:50.565
that tide lifts the boats for everybody.

503
00:21:50.835 --> 00:21:52.645
There's promotions, there's new

504
00:21:52.885 --> 00:21:54.205
divisions, there's places to go.

505
00:21:54.885 --> 00:21:57.045
I think that, I think every organization probably has a

506
00:21:57.045 --> 00:21:59.445
handful of real strong, innovative architects,

507
00:21:59.865 --> 00:22:02.725
and they're probably not, they're not feeding them.

508
00:22:03.525 --> 00:22:05.465
And if they're not feeding them, they're gonna lose them.

509
00:22:05.725 --> 00:22:07.985
And maybe discourage actually the out of the box thinking,

510
00:22:07.985 --> 00:22:11.665
You know, the old Japanese, um, uh, saying about the nail

511
00:22:11.665 --> 00:22:13.025
that sticks out gets hammered down.

512
00:22:13.685 --> 00:22:15.105
You know, we've gotta watch those things.

513
00:22:16.225 --> 00:22:18.065
I don't know, I might disagree

514
00:22:18.065 --> 00:22:20.745
with one thing you've said, which is that innovation

515
00:22:22.345 --> 00:22:23.505
actually makes work for people.

516
00:22:24.085 --> 00:22:25.305
Uh, if you think about innovation,

517
00:22:25.615 --> 00:22:29.185
like a self-service portal where customers can log in

518
00:22:29.185 --> 00:22:30.785
and provision the vehicles themselves

519
00:22:30.785 --> 00:22:32.505
and not have the account exec,

520
00:22:32.845 --> 00:22:35.625
or maybe some of the innovations that apply automations, so

521
00:22:35.625 --> 00:22:38.265
that, rather than having to notice

522
00:22:38.495 --> 00:22:41.745
that the upfitter said it's done, you can just have a system

523
00:22:41.745 --> 00:22:43.985
that's automatically listening for that,

524
00:22:44.445 --> 00:22:46.225
and then call the transport company

525
00:22:46.725 --> 00:22:48.665
and arrange that shipment without anybody

526
00:22:48.815 --> 00:22:49.865
needing to be involved.

527
00:22:50.485 --> 00:22:53.345
We think that some of the innovation maybe takes away the,

528
00:22:53.365 --> 00:22:56.625
the grunt work from some of the, the less glamorous parts

529
00:22:56.765 --> 00:22:57.825
of fleet management.

530
00:22:58.485 --> 00:22:59.985
No, I, I would agree with that Mark, too.

531
00:23:00.225 --> 00:23:01.505
I think it's about a mentality

532
00:23:01.505 --> 00:23:03.505
of feeling it's gonna create more work and, and, and,

533
00:23:03.525 --> 00:23:06.305
and as executives and as leaders, um, you have

534
00:23:06.305 --> 00:23:07.425
to explain just that, like,

535
00:23:07.425 --> 00:23:08.905
this is probably gonna make your life easier.

536
00:23:09.285 --> 00:23:11.105
It might be... challenges,

537
00:23:11.565 --> 00:23:14.145
but that's.. it has to really... The

538
00:23:14.145 --> 00:23:15.945
organizations have to believe in it

539
00:23:15.945 --> 00:23:16.945
and want to have it, right?

540
00:23:17.165 --> 00:23:20.905
Mm-Hmm. And, um, there's so much reward out there for those

541
00:23:20.905 --> 00:23:21.905
that choose that path.

542
00:23:21.995 --> 00:23:26.065
There really is. You have access to tremendous clients.

543
00:23:26.565 --> 00:23:28.665
You have access to opportunity.

544
00:23:29.205 --> 00:23:33.145
Uh, and really, if, if these companies don't find a way

545
00:23:33.465 --> 00:23:34.865
to consistently lead

546
00:23:35.365 --> 00:23:37.825
and push into the future, they're gonna be left behind.

547
00:23:38.575 --> 00:23:40.505
Yeah. How, how does all this M

548
00:23:40.505 --> 00:23:42.825
and A that's taking place in the industry

549
00:23:43.085 --> 00:23:44.505
affect the industry?

550
00:23:45.895 --> 00:23:50.225
Well, I, I think there is a danger in any type

551
00:23:50.225 --> 00:23:51.825
of environment with this many mergers

552
00:23:51.825 --> 00:23:56.585
and acquisitions, um, that the status quo,

553
00:23:57.325 --> 00:23:58.545
uh, becomes acceptable.

554
00:23:58.725 --> 00:23:59.865
And again, I'm not gonna,

555
00:23:59.965 --> 00:24:01.345
I'm not gonna detract from people

556
00:24:01.345 --> 00:24:02.545
work hard, and that's fine.

557
00:24:03.165 --> 00:24:04.345
And that that's important,

558
00:24:04.365 --> 00:24:05.705
but I'm not gonna detract from that.

559
00:24:05.825 --> 00:24:10.145
I just, I fundamentally disagree that the, the standard is,

560
00:24:10.405 --> 00:24:11.465
is acceptable, right?

561
00:24:11.765 --> 00:24:16.065
And so you have this, this consolidation going on, and,

562
00:24:16.165 --> 00:24:18.425
and ultimately it's, it's gonna consolidate

563
00:24:18.425 --> 00:24:20.105
and it's gonna eliminate competition.

564
00:24:20.105 --> 00:24:21.385
It's gonna eliminate some

565
00:24:21.405 --> 00:24:23.425
of those smaller fleet management companies

566
00:24:23.425 --> 00:24:26.505
or those independents from having the opportunity to rise up

567
00:24:26.565 --> 00:24:29.025
and, and show their wares and show their capabilities.

568
00:24:29.055 --> 00:24:30.065
They'll be consumed

569
00:24:30.485 --> 00:24:33.425
and they'll be really potentially just silenced.

570
00:24:33.445 --> 00:24:35.345
And that's, that's sad. You know?

571
00:24:35.345 --> 00:24:37.425
It's, it's, but it's a na... it's the nature of business.

572
00:24:37.445 --> 00:24:40.065
And, and those acquisitions

573
00:24:40.915 --> 00:24:42.905
makes sense financially in many cases,

574
00:24:43.485 --> 00:24:45.745
but ultimately, it probably stifles competition

575
00:24:45.745 --> 00:24:47.385
and stifles innovation, in my opinion.

576
00:24:49.865 --> 00:24:54.005
You talked about, um, having to make the case for

577
00:24:55.675 --> 00:24:57.555
evolving and, and embracing opportunity

578
00:24:57.695 --> 00:24:59.515
and, you know, changing the way you do things.

579
00:24:59.975 --> 00:25:01.435
And then we also talked about how some

580
00:25:01.555 --> 00:25:03.635
of these areas can be a black hole where we don't even,

581
00:25:03.775 --> 00:25:06.315
you know, know how long it takes to do things.

582
00:25:06.975 --> 00:25:10.025
So can you talk a little bit about, you know,

583
00:25:10.025 --> 00:25:11.625
the conversations you have been having

584
00:25:11.735 --> 00:25:13.785
with customers about when you make the case?

585
00:25:13.845 --> 00:25:17.705
Is it, Hey, listen, you know, your current process

586
00:25:18.125 --> 00:25:21.265
for turning around a vehicle is taking six weeks.

587
00:25:22.085 --> 00:25:23.505
If we could find you a solution,

588
00:25:23.505 --> 00:25:25.385
or if there was something out there that would get it down

589
00:25:25.385 --> 00:25:26.825
to one week or even two weeks.

590
00:25:27.425 --> 00:25:31.105
I mean, is that the kind of case that resonates with, uh,

591
00:25:31.215 --> 00:25:33.785
with folks and, and helps to change the mindset?

592
00:25:34.005 --> 00:25:35.185
Or is it something different?

593
00:25:35.725 --> 00:25:39.105
Um, because, uh, when people are operating from a sense of

594
00:25:39.695 --> 00:25:43.305
fear or, uh, you know, resistance to change, like you said,

595
00:25:43.305 --> 00:25:45.265
status quo becomes acceptable.

596
00:25:45.765 --> 00:25:48.465
Um, what are, what's that or,

597
00:25:48.525 --> 00:25:51.985
or what are the, um, the, the,

598
00:25:52.765 --> 00:25:56.315
those points that say, yes, okay, you can't argue with that.

599
00:25:56.615 --> 00:25:58.795
We have to, we have to look into this, we have

600
00:25:58.795 --> 00:26:00.515
to pursue it. What does that look like?

601
00:26:01.065 --> 00:26:04.835
Well, let's, let's, let's look at those, those, uh,

602
00:26:04.835 --> 00:26:08.435
accelerators in process as investments, right?

603
00:26:08.435 --> 00:26:09.915
They're not a cost, they're not,

604
00:26:09.915 --> 00:26:11.155
they're not something to be feared.

605
00:26:11.155 --> 00:26:12.875
They're investments, they're enablers

606
00:26:12.875 --> 00:26:14.195
to more growth and more revenue.

607
00:26:14.935 --> 00:26:19.115
Um, I think that that can be, certainly, can be, um,

608
00:26:19.895 --> 00:26:23.675
for lack of a better word, sold to, to the FMCs

609
00:26:23.675 --> 00:26:24.715
and different organizations.

610
00:26:25.295 --> 00:26:27.755
Um, and then really show what, what this enables them.

611
00:26:27.785 --> 00:26:30.515
I'll give you an example. Um, my previous company,

612
00:26:30.515 --> 00:26:33.235
there was one time when we had a delivery window,

613
00:26:33.315 --> 00:26:35.715
I think it was 21 days from order to delivery.

614
00:26:35.745 --> 00:26:38.675
This is very far back on some of our mobility assets.

615
00:26:39.215 --> 00:26:42.155
Uh, I wanna say they, that that got down to little

616
00:26:42.155 --> 00:26:44.080
as three days, which is an incredible,

617
00:26:44.080 --> 00:26:46.645
incredible achievement operational capabilities

618
00:26:47.845 --> 00:26:49.615
that, that achievement.

619
00:26:49.735 --> 00:26:51.855
I, I kind of, I, i, I don't wanna be too dramatic here,

620
00:26:51.855 --> 00:26:52.775
but if you think about the challenge

621
00:26:52.775 --> 00:26:53.815
of going to the moon, right?

622
00:26:54.155 --> 00:26:55.855
So we set the goal, let's, we set this goal

623
00:26:55.855 --> 00:26:57.055
to go to the moon back in the 1960s.

624
00:26:57.635 --> 00:27:00.495
So by going there, we innovated multiple solutions

625
00:27:00.495 --> 00:27:03.535
that have benefit benefited, you know, you know, the,

626
00:27:03.595 --> 00:27:05.295
the world since then, uh,

627
00:27:05.295 --> 00:27:07.775
from Tang into microwave ovens to what have you.

628
00:27:08.285 --> 00:27:10.935
When you take on these challenges and, and you,

629
00:27:11.075 --> 00:27:13.775
and you see that, that, uh, you know,

630
00:27:13.845 --> 00:27:16.215
it's gonna be difficult when they incorporate these,

631
00:27:16.425 --> 00:27:18.655
these accelerators and operational capabilities,

632
00:27:18.925 --> 00:27:22.135
there's ancillary benefits that probably are unknown

633
00:27:22.135 --> 00:27:25.055
to them, but they, we call it the known unknown.

634
00:27:25.555 --> 00:27:27.855
Um, so I, I think it's really important to be able

635
00:27:27.855 --> 00:27:31.015
to talk about it, to show that, that it is an investment

636
00:27:31.675 --> 00:27:34.455
and that, um, clients really will appreciate, and they've,

637
00:27:34.455 --> 00:27:36.975
and honestly, you've gotta move the speed of business.

638
00:27:36.975 --> 00:27:39.095
We're not, we're not gonna go back

639
00:27:39.095 --> 00:27:41.815
to a pre a pre covid, uh, environment.

640
00:27:41.835 --> 00:27:42.895
That's just not gonna happen.

641
00:27:43.555 --> 00:27:45.735
So we're, to be successful,

642
00:27:45.735 --> 00:27:47.095
you're gonna have to move the speed of business.

643
00:27:47.115 --> 00:27:50.855
And, and, and, you know, maybe the economy is, is, is,

644
00:27:51.395 --> 00:27:53.455
is kind of vanilla right now, and that's okay,

645
00:27:53.515 --> 00:27:54.775
but it's not always gonna be that way.

646
00:27:55.235 --> 00:27:56.655
It, things will fire up again.

647
00:27:56.655 --> 00:27:57.775
If if you're not ready

648
00:27:57.795 --> 00:27:59.575
to move quick, you're gonna be left behind.

649
00:27:59.635 --> 00:28:03.735
And, and that sounds like just, that just sounds like words,

650
00:28:03.835 --> 00:28:05.415
but, but really, it is the truth.

651
00:28:06.075 --> 00:28:07.975
Um, I think the,

652
00:28:08.115 --> 00:28:10.175
the fear I have is in the flea management industry,

653
00:28:10.175 --> 00:28:11.975
there's too much of a desire to go back to what was,

654
00:28:12.635 --> 00:28:15.215
you know, go, go back to the, the fifties and sixties

655
00:28:15.275 --> 00:28:18.215
and seventies when we had eight, nine weeks order a vehicle,

656
00:28:18.235 --> 00:28:19.895
and no one expected anything special.

657
00:28:20.555 --> 00:28:22.695
And, um, that's just not gonna be there.

658
00:28:22.955 --> 00:28:25.575
And the tools, the companies today that have come out

659
00:28:25.575 --> 00:28:27.335
of the, the before

660
00:28:27.475 --> 00:28:30.255
and have, have really cut their teeth in the struggles

661
00:28:30.255 --> 00:28:32.295
and difficulties in covid are fully capable

662
00:28:32.395 --> 00:28:35.415
of doing some amazing things, being amazing partners,

663
00:28:35.555 --> 00:28:38.255
and to leverage that, it, it is,

664
00:28:38.275 --> 00:28:39.415
is such a tremendous advantage.

665
00:28:39.525 --> 00:28:42.175
It's silly not to take that and, and move forward.

666
00:28:43.585 --> 00:28:44.805
Oh, I did not expect us

667
00:28:44.805 --> 00:28:47.245
to be talking about powdered flavored orange drink.

668
00:28:47.435 --> 00:28:51.525
But, uh, yeah, interesting throwback reference.

669
00:28:52.225 --> 00:28:56.725
Uh, but looking forward, how do you see the role of the OEM

670
00:28:57.385 --> 00:29:01.485
uh, encroaching onto the FMC business?

671
00:29:02.805 --> 00:29:05.495
Well, that's, that has been a refrain for quite some time.

672
00:29:05.795 --> 00:29:08.495
Um, I think that's the, that's the boogeyman in,

673
00:29:08.495 --> 00:29:11.335
in every FMC closet, is that there's

674
00:29:12.185 --> 00:29:13.255
OEM's just gonna do this.

675
00:29:13.735 --> 00:29:16.615
I don't think they, they have really effectively have ever

676
00:29:16.615 --> 00:29:18.455
really executed, executed.

677
00:29:18.975 --> 00:29:21.055
I think you always will need that FMC.

678
00:29:21.585 --> 00:29:25.615
There is, you know, an OEM is selling vehicles, right?

679
00:29:25.615 --> 00:29:28.095
And when you distract, when you detract from that effort,

680
00:29:28.095 --> 00:29:30.575
and when you detract from your or your dealership network,

681
00:29:30.915 --> 00:29:33.415
and we've seen recently, there's efforts to kind

682
00:29:33.415 --> 00:29:35.895
of cut the dealers out of some pro... products and programs,

683
00:29:36.035 --> 00:29:37.055
hasn't worked out very well.

684
00:29:37.355 --> 00:29:38.615
Hasn't worked out very well at all.

685
00:29:39.315 --> 00:29:41.995
Um, I think that the FMCs have a role,

686
00:29:42.535 --> 00:29:44.755
but to, to the points we're making here,

687
00:29:45.135 --> 00:29:46.835
if they don't keep making themselves,

688
00:29:46.935 --> 00:29:49.955
if they don't make themselves relevant to the,

689
00:29:50.015 --> 00:29:52.875
to future proof, then maybe the, the OEMs can kind

690
00:29:52.875 --> 00:29:54.435
of step in and say, look, this is pretty vanilla.

691
00:29:54.755 --> 00:29:56.955
I have, I have telematics that's in my vehicle,

692
00:29:57.115 --> 00:29:59.075
I manufacture, I can up..

693
00:29:59.115 --> 00:30:01.035
I can update the entire fleet in moments.

694
00:30:01.215 --> 00:30:03.555
Yes, I can give you gas cards, I can do access.

695
00:30:03.815 --> 00:30:06.755
So I, yeah, me too. There's a lot of I can do that too.

696
00:30:06.855 --> 00:30:09.675
And so the FMCs should really be thinking, how do we,

697
00:30:09.735 --> 00:30:10.995
how do we put ourselves apart?

698
00:30:11.175 --> 00:30:14.275
How do we stay relevant? And how do we push people, uh,

699
00:30:14.375 --> 00:30:15.555
the envelope of innovation,

700
00:30:15.575 --> 00:30:17.275
or else there'll probably be left in the past.

701
00:30:17.695 --> 00:30:20.715
So, um, if now more than ever, there's,

702
00:30:20.985 --> 00:30:23.875
there's probably a risk of that, Mark that, um,

703
00:30:24.505 --> 00:30:26.915
OEMs could see, Hey, this is, we've got the technology,

704
00:30:26.975 --> 00:30:28.475
we have the footprint, we have the ability.

705
00:30:28.685 --> 00:30:31.435
Maybe this is the moment, uh, if it's me,

706
00:30:31.555 --> 00:30:35.395
I am pushing my organization to really just to stretch,

707
00:30:35.465 --> 00:30:39.115
stretch out that step and, and, uh, start sprinting.

708
00:30:42.215 --> 00:30:45.235
Uh, so I wanted to ask you about AI, right?

709
00:30:45.255 --> 00:30:47.635
That's a topic that I feel like you can't have any

710
00:30:47.635 --> 00:30:49.515
conversation without mentioning AI,

711
00:30:49.935 --> 00:30:52.275
but I wanna, um, ask it in the, in the context

712
00:30:52.335 --> 00:30:53.515
of what you're doing now.

713
00:30:53.815 --> 00:30:58.155
So, um, you've, you've established the Merlin group, um,

714
00:30:58.205 --> 00:31:00.555
after having all this, uh, you know, years in,

715
00:31:00.555 --> 00:31:03.395
in the fleet world, can you talk to us a little bit about

716
00:31:03.865 --> 00:31:05.675
what you're doing at Merlin Group,

717
00:31:05.775 --> 00:31:08.475
the conversations you're having, and does AI come up?

718
00:31:08.475 --> 00:31:10.635
Like, are are companies asking you about it,

719
00:31:10.655 --> 00:31:12.595
or is it something that's still just kind

720
00:31:12.595 --> 00:31:14.195
of in the hype world

721
00:31:14.335 --> 00:31:15.995
and not, not something

722
00:31:15.995 --> 00:31:17.755
that people are seriously considering right now?

723
00:31:18.415 --> 00:31:21.025
Yeah, well, well, you know, first, so, so Merlin Group is,

724
00:31:21.085 --> 00:31:25.745
is born out of, uh, spirit of true innovation.

725
00:31:25.965 --> 00:31:27.625
Out of the box thinking, uh,

726
00:31:27.645 --> 00:31:30.985
and kind of an architect mindset that says, you know, let,

727
00:31:30.995 --> 00:31:33.145
let's, let's deconstruct what is,

728
00:31:33.605 --> 00:31:36.105
and let's see if there's, if there's new ways to do things,

729
00:31:36.715 --> 00:31:38.785
let's look at things from 30,000 feet.

730
00:31:38.885 --> 00:31:41.305
We, we talk about our, our CICs,

731
00:31:41.305 --> 00:31:44.105
which is across industry collaborations where we might say,

732
00:31:44.105 --> 00:31:46.545
Hey, there's a, there's a paving company that has,

733
00:31:46.685 --> 00:31:48.345
has common ground and some synergies

734
00:31:48.345 --> 00:31:51.145
with a EV battery manufacture, believe it or not.

735
00:31:51.405 --> 00:31:53.785
So we found some of those connectivities

736
00:31:54.015 --> 00:31:55.385
between those organizations.

737
00:31:56.125 --> 00:31:59.505
Um, we talk about some of our, with our clients,

738
00:31:59.605 --> 00:32:02.785
we talk about this mindset innovation, right?

739
00:32:02.785 --> 00:32:03.865
Through the organization, how

740
00:32:03.865 --> 00:32:05.185
it's critical, importantly it is.

741
00:32:05.725 --> 00:32:07.385
Um, and in regarding AI,

742
00:32:07.935 --> 00:32:10.105
certainly it is in every conversation.

743
00:32:10.365 --> 00:32:13.205
Mm-Hmm. Um, you know, just had a,

744
00:32:13.205 --> 00:32:16.205
just a conference in Atlanta that, that my team was at.

745
00:32:16.705 --> 00:32:19.765
And, um, one of the platforms that was really interesting

746
00:32:19.765 --> 00:32:23.445
to us was an, it was an AI, uh, warehouse automated vehicle

747
00:32:24.035 --> 00:32:28.285
that really has, has the, it's not just a, uh, EV

748
00:32:28.905 --> 00:32:32.165
but with the AI technology, you're taking, taking, uh,

749
00:32:32.265 --> 00:32:35.525
you know, a lot of risk out of the equation.

750
00:32:35.705 --> 00:32:37.285
You're building these, these warehouses

751
00:32:37.345 --> 00:32:38.645
for maximum efficiencies.

752
00:32:39.145 --> 00:32:40.125
And I think this is the world

753
00:32:40.125 --> 00:32:41.285
that we're, that we're moving towards.

754
00:32:41.385 --> 00:32:45.445
And so, uh, leveraging AI, you know, in that sense, um,

755
00:32:46.065 --> 00:32:47.645
the gains are, are very clear.

756
00:32:48.105 --> 00:32:50.725
So I think it's almost in every conversation that we have.

757
00:32:51.345 --> 00:32:52.925
Um...

758
00:32:53.515 --> 00:32:55.645
it's not gonna be something that's gonna go away.

759
00:32:56.105 --> 00:33:00.685
AI will either overtly or, or very subtly work its way

760
00:33:00.685 --> 00:33:03.325
and already has into so much that we do already today.

761
00:33:03.485 --> 00:33:04.885
I think. So,

762
00:33:05.145 --> 00:33:08.205
and it's, it's, it's, you know, we look at Merlin

763
00:33:08.265 --> 00:33:11.165
and we know that it's an area that clients are, uh, are,

764
00:33:11.265 --> 00:33:13.485
are... are eager and hungry for.

765
00:33:13.825 --> 00:33:15.925
So we'll find those, those organizations, those partners,

766
00:33:15.925 --> 00:33:17.405
and we'll bring them that information.

767
00:33:18.025 --> 00:33:20.405
And, um, maybe bri build some bridges

768
00:33:20.405 --> 00:33:22.565
and some synergies between traditional

769
00:33:22.565 --> 00:33:23.885
and non-traditional opportunities.

770
00:33:25.715 --> 00:33:30.175
It sounds like you're helping some of these companies

771
00:33:30.835 --> 00:33:33.975
be open to thinking outside the box, right?

772
00:33:34.235 --> 00:33:36.735
And, and introducing some new ideas

773
00:33:36.795 --> 00:33:38.695
and new strategies that maybe they hadn't,

774
00:33:39.035 --> 00:33:40.175
uh, considered before.

775
00:33:40.795 --> 00:33:44.615
Um, what's the reaction to some of those conversations?

776
00:33:44.835 --> 00:33:46.415
Is, uh, I mean, are they,

777
00:33:46.875 --> 00:33:49.135
are they seeking out help in this realm,

778
00:33:49.275 --> 00:33:51.575
or is this something where, you know, you're,

779
00:33:51.635 --> 00:33:54.135
you're maybe at an event, you're having conversations

780
00:33:54.255 --> 00:33:56.725
with people and they're saying either,

781
00:33:57.725 --> 00:33:59.285
actually it's a really good point, we should talk,

782
00:33:59.385 --> 00:34:02.405
or, nah, we're, we're good.

783
00:34:03.515 --> 00:34:05.685
What are, what are some of those conversations like?

784
00:34:06.635 --> 00:34:07.895
So, so we had an event in,

785
00:34:07.895 --> 00:34:09.535
in Fort Lauderdale about a month and a half ago.

786
00:34:09.555 --> 00:34:11.215
I'd say the responses was pretty good.

787
00:34:11.235 --> 00:34:14.615
We, we established some cross industry opportunities.

788
00:34:14.855 --> 00:34:18.375
I, I wanna say that in that room, um, at our round table,

789
00:34:18.595 --> 00:34:20.575
we had almost half a billion dollars of,

790
00:34:20.575 --> 00:34:23.815
of sustainable money to invest, uh, capital to invest.

791
00:34:23.835 --> 00:34:26.495
And I think the, the teams wa the, the different, uh,

792
00:34:26.495 --> 00:34:29.575
attendees walked out of there with about $200 million in,

793
00:34:29.675 --> 00:34:33.785
in, in, um, uh, in deals and agreements put in place.

794
00:34:34.285 --> 00:34:35.905
Uh, they didn't see that coming.

795
00:34:36.695 --> 00:34:39.675
Um, our next, our next event we're gonna hold during the,

796
00:34:39.775 --> 00:34:42.235
uh, ac uh, a TC in, in Las Vegas.

797
00:34:42.685 --> 00:34:43.795
We'll probably be a little bit different,

798
00:34:43.815 --> 00:34:45.275
but we bring people into the room.

799
00:34:45.535 --> 00:34:47.955
Um, uh, we, we kind of, we kind

800
00:34:47.955 --> 00:34:50.875
of kick off some conversations based on a lot of research

801
00:34:50.875 --> 00:34:53.555
of those organizations we sit down with, with the,

802
00:34:53.555 --> 00:34:55.755
with understand the philosophy of those organizations,

803
00:34:56.055 --> 00:34:57.915
and we kind of get the conversation going.

804
00:34:58.535 --> 00:35:01.075
And then we do a lot of traditional follow up and, and,

805
00:35:01.295 --> 00:35:04.195
and reinforce that, Hey, these are good ideas two days ago.

806
00:35:04.195 --> 00:35:06.315
They're good ideas tomorrow. But a good idea

807
00:35:06.315 --> 00:35:09.155
that's not executed is really just a, is just a pipe dream.

808
00:35:09.735 --> 00:35:12.995
So the, I think that we've led the horse to water.

809
00:35:13.365 --> 00:35:14.875
We've kind of made a drink a little bit,

810
00:35:15.455 --> 00:35:16.515
and now, uh, they're,

811
00:35:16.515 --> 00:35:18.315
they're lining up at the trough, so to speak.

812
00:35:18.415 --> 00:35:19.835
So the proof's in the pudding.

813
00:35:19.955 --> 00:35:22.595
I mean, it's, it's a lot of work every day and,

814
00:35:22.595 --> 00:35:24.795
and every week to engage and, and to bring value.

815
00:35:25.415 --> 00:35:28.395
Um, but that's what we do, and that's what we enjoy doing.

816
00:35:28.535 --> 00:35:30.995
So, um, it's good reaction.

817
00:35:31.095 --> 00:35:34.155
And I think, um, I hope to see a snowball effect

818
00:35:34.155 --> 00:35:37.765
because I think truly what's rewarding for us is,

819
00:35:37.985 --> 00:35:41.645
is seeing organizations, individuals kind of have

820
00:35:41.645 --> 00:35:44.405
that aha moment saying, I never saw this.

821
00:35:44.765 --> 00:35:47.205
I never looked at it that way. I have opportunity.

822
00:35:47.505 --> 00:35:49.165
And when it really comes to

823
00:35:49.965 --> 00:35:52.885
challenges in the organizations downstream, we hope

824
00:35:52.885 --> 00:35:56.525
to look back and say, Hmm, yeah, I, I'm open to new ideas

825
00:35:56.545 --> 00:35:59.005
and new concepts, and we, we have to think differently.

826
00:35:59.425 --> 00:36:02.845
And so that's kind of some, some of the, some of the,

827
00:36:02.985 --> 00:36:06.685
the benefits I think that we can hopefully expect down, uh,

828
00:36:06.865 --> 00:36:07.965
you know, in the future here.

829
00:36:09.225 --> 00:36:11.515
Yeah. Well, congratulations, uh, mark, I think we need

830
00:36:11.515 --> 00:36:15.195
to sign up for that ride, that round table. We can,

831
00:36:15.765 --> 00:36:19.315
We'll be at tpo, so I definitely plan to meet you there.

832
00:36:19.315 --> 00:36:21.155
Rick, you may have invitation.

833
00:36:21.355 --> 00:36:23.555
I think, I think it's gonna be in the font on blue looks.

834
00:36:23.855 --> 00:36:26.355
I'm doing a plug right now. So that's, that's that.

835
00:36:26.355 --> 00:36:27.835
Shame the shameless plug. Right.

836
00:36:27.895 --> 00:36:30.035
But, uh, we'll make sure we get the information over to you,

837
00:36:30.095 --> 00:36:31.555
and we're gonna have some pretty, we're gonna have some

838
00:36:31.555 --> 00:36:34.155
pretty, uh, innovative individuals at, at, at that, uh,

839
00:36:34.155 --> 00:36:38.475
round table, uh, a wide cross section, uh, of industries.

840
00:36:39.095 --> 00:36:41.035
And, uh, we're gonna really try to pull out some,

841
00:36:41.035 --> 00:36:43.275
some synergies and have a little fun at the same time, too.

842
00:36:43.705 --> 00:36:45.555
It's late, it's Las Vegas after. All right,

843
00:36:47.205 --> 00:36:48.205
There you go.

844
00:36:48.615 --> 00:36:53.115
All right. Well, I think to wrap it up, um, we usually try

845
00:36:53.115 --> 00:36:55.915
to do, uh, we do a lightning round just, you know,

846
00:36:55.915 --> 00:36:57.395
to end things on a, on a

847
00:36:58.005 --> 00:37:00.235
light energetic note, if you're up for that.

848
00:37:01.115 --> 00:37:03.035
I am. And, and, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I,

849
00:37:03.115 --> 00:37:03.875
I love, this is pretty

850
00:37:04.035 --> 00:37:05.075
interesting. So I'm, I'm ready to go.

851
00:37:05.545 --> 00:37:06.755
Alright, well, here we go.

852
00:37:07.295 --> 00:37:10.795
So if money's no object, what car are you buying?

853
00:37:11.465 --> 00:37:13.595
Yeah, no doubt. In my mind, it's gonna be a,

854
00:37:13.635 --> 00:37:16.755
a Bentley convertible, GTCI think it's a GCC Black,

855
00:37:17.085 --> 00:37:18.195
maybe with tan interior.

856
00:37:18.295 --> 00:37:19.435
That's kind of the dream car.

857
00:37:20.135 --> 00:37:21.995
And, and I, nice, I'm a resident of Miami,

858
00:37:22.095 --> 00:37:23.515
so I see them all the time and I just have

859
00:37:23.515 --> 00:37:27.035
to watch them drive by and, you know, that's the car and

860
00:37:27.035 --> 00:37:28.515
Sigh as they drive by. Yeah.

861
00:37:28.815 --> 00:37:30.315
One day. One day.

862
00:37:30.475 --> 00:37:31.955
Which if you drive in Miami, you find out,

863
00:37:31.955 --> 00:37:33.235
then maybe you can't afford the insurance

864
00:37:33.235 --> 00:37:35.795
because it's, it, it, it, it's, it's wild.

865
00:37:36.055 --> 00:37:38.315
So I'm probably safer just walking around.

866
00:37:39.785 --> 00:37:42.965
Got it. Uh, will fleets ever be fully electric?

867
00:37:45.175 --> 00:37:47.545
Well, that's, they, it, it's easy to say yes

868
00:37:47.545 --> 00:37:49.105
because you're not giving me a time limit.

869
00:37:49.165 --> 00:37:52.585
And, and the year 24 67, I believe.

870
00:37:53.905 --> 00:37:57.625
I agree. Uh, I, I think you're gonna see, I,

871
00:37:57.745 --> 00:37:59.785
I think the class eight space is gonna be challenging.

872
00:37:59.905 --> 00:38:02.705
I think you're gonna have diesel, uh, clean diesel or, or,

873
00:38:02.705 --> 00:38:05.025
or, or hydrogen in some form or fashion.

874
00:38:05.605 --> 00:38:07.665
Um, and of course that's, depending on

875
00:38:07.665 --> 00:38:09.105
how you do the hydrogen, it could be electric.

876
00:38:09.105 --> 00:38:13.505
But, um, for the next 20, 20 years at least, um,

877
00:38:14.035 --> 00:38:18.665
commercial fleets, I mean, I, I,

878
00:38:18.745 --> 00:38:21.345
I have a concept we that, that we call Firefly.

879
00:38:21.345 --> 00:38:23.545
And it's really, it's really about looking at the aggregate

880
00:38:23.545 --> 00:38:26.105
in total and saying, Hey, you don't have

881
00:38:26.105 --> 00:38:28.945
to have 400 vehicles at this one delivery station

882
00:38:28.945 --> 00:38:32.225
that electrified, if you just did 10% at all your stations,

883
00:38:32.525 --> 00:38:33.785
the grid could probably handle that.

884
00:38:33.785 --> 00:38:35.445
And you're actually pulling more CO2

885
00:38:35.445 --> 00:38:36.445
and carbon outta the out of

886
00:38:36.445 --> 00:38:37.525
the environment if you do it that way.

887
00:38:37.985 --> 00:38:38.925
So there's, there's different

888
00:38:38.925 --> 00:38:39.725
ways you have to look at things.

889
00:38:39.985 --> 00:38:44.525
And ultimately, if the financial, um, modeling doesn't

890
00:38:45.075 --> 00:38:47.445
support it, then you're gonna have a tough time.

891
00:38:47.745 --> 00:38:50.045
We need more grants incentives, we need grants incentives

892
00:38:50.045 --> 00:38:51.205
that are easy to access.

893
00:38:52.025 --> 00:38:54.045
You know, there's sometimes grants incentives, you have

894
00:38:54.045 --> 00:38:56.845
to ju you know, jump on a foot whistle three times and, and,

895
00:38:56.845 --> 00:38:58.605
and, and do a somersault just to figure out how

896
00:38:58.605 --> 00:38:59.885
to get the grantor incent incentives.

897
00:39:00.265 --> 00:39:01.725
So those things have to be made easier.

898
00:39:02.305 --> 00:39:06.145
Um, but I'm gonna say yes, I think yes,

899
00:39:06.285 --> 00:39:08.945
fleets will be electrified in, in our lifetime.

900
00:39:10.775 --> 00:39:13.335
Interesting. I, I was going more with, I agreed

901
00:39:13.415 --> 00:39:17.215
with the 24, uh, you know, 20 timeline,

902
00:39:17.275 --> 00:39:19.695
but we'll, we'll see how we, how we do on that.

903
00:39:20.115 --> 00:39:22.295
Um, okay. Well, same question for autonomous.

904
00:39:22.295 --> 00:39:24.015
Will fleets ever be fully autonomous?

905
00:39:24.655 --> 00:39:26.355
Uh, yeah, I think that's, that's,

906
00:39:26.705 --> 00:39:28.075
that is absolutely gonna happen.

907
00:39:28.395 --> 00:39:30.635
I think that, uh, what we're seeing leaps of bounds and,

908
00:39:30.655 --> 00:39:34.835
and, and, uh, ai, AI technology, tying that with, you know,

909
00:39:34.835 --> 00:39:37.635
obviously autonomous vehicles, autonomous vehicles is,

910
00:39:38.345 --> 00:39:40.035
it's just, that's probably within,

911
00:39:40.535 --> 00:39:43.355
you've probably seen a 50% adoption in autonomous, uh,

912
00:39:43.355 --> 00:39:45.435
fleets within the next 10 or 15 years.

913
00:39:45.775 --> 00:39:47.515
And I think that economically makes sense.

914
00:39:47.535 --> 00:39:49.595
And unfortunately, you know, there's,

915
00:39:49.595 --> 00:39:51.275
there's some human capital that,

916
00:39:51.345 --> 00:39:53.035
that comes out of the equation there.

917
00:39:53.455 --> 00:39:56.955
Um, but at the same time, uh, that's, yeah,

918
00:39:57.025 --> 00:39:58.435
that is definitely going to happen.

919
00:39:58.775 --> 00:40:01.675
That's, that's probably more near term than fully

920
00:40:01.675 --> 00:40:02.795
electrified, I would say.

921
00:40:03.535 --> 00:40:05.875
Wow. I, I have to say you're the first guest to say yes

922
00:40:05.875 --> 00:40:06.955
to both of those questions.

923
00:40:07.135 --> 00:40:10.115
We usually get the, uh, no, it, it's not gonna happen.

924
00:40:10.655 --> 00:40:11.915
So I, I love the variety.

925
00:40:12.115 --> 00:40:13.595
I, I love the new perspective. Thank

926
00:40:13.595 --> 00:40:14.595
You. I've watched quite a few electrified

927
00:40:14.595 --> 00:40:15.475
programs

928
00:40:15.535 --> 00:40:16.955
and they're very, very difficult

929
00:40:17.055 --> 00:40:18.475
and they don't always succeed.

930
00:40:18.575 --> 00:40:21.915
So I, I think my successes in is sometimes in the failure,

931
00:40:22.495 --> 00:40:26.515
but that is such valuable experience that I, I do see

932
00:40:26.865 --> 00:40:28.435
with clarity the three

933
00:40:28.435 --> 00:40:32.635
or four things that have to be done to, to enable this type

934
00:40:32.635 --> 00:40:34.635
of growth or this type of success.

935
00:40:34.735 --> 00:40:37.395
So I, I see a pathway if I didn't see a path. That's fair.

936
00:40:38.055 --> 00:40:40.435
That's fair. Um, what is the,

937
00:40:40.435 --> 00:40:41.595
what's the biggest opportunity

938
00:40:41.595 --> 00:40:42.755
that fleets are missing out on

939
00:40:44.755 --> 00:40:45.755
Cer? Uh, certainly we've

940
00:40:45.755 --> 00:40:46.695
talked about quite a bit here.

941
00:40:46.995 --> 00:40:50.615
cer is, is efficiencies in, in the way they operate, um,

942
00:40:50.795 --> 00:40:52.695
future proofing their, their operations,

943
00:40:53.075 --> 00:40:55.215
and then really leveraging the opportunities

944
00:40:55.215 --> 00:40:58.575
that a true mobility program would afford them.

945
00:40:59.075 --> 00:41:02.005
Um, that's probably where they're missing out.

946
00:41:02.025 --> 00:41:04.325
We, again, I'm gonna, I'm sure I'm gonna get some,

947
00:41:04.395 --> 00:41:06.685
some dirty looks, but fleet off on top

948
00:41:06.685 --> 00:41:09.125
of every fleet company says mobility, mobility, mobility.

949
00:41:09.545 --> 00:41:11.805
But I don't think there's a whole lot of actual companies

950
00:41:11.805 --> 00:41:14.805
that, that, that, that understand what that really means.

951
00:41:14.945 --> 00:41:17.005
Mm-Hmm. And execute a previous company is,

952
00:41:17.005 --> 00:41:18.285
is the best in the business at doing it.

953
00:41:18.585 --> 00:41:20.125
And, uh, probably more people should

954
00:41:20.125 --> 00:41:21.245
be emulating what they're doing.

955
00:41:22.435 --> 00:41:25.415
Got it. And finally, what's your proudest moment,

956
00:41:25.595 --> 00:41:27.815
either personal, professional or otherwise?

957
00:41:29.325 --> 00:41:31.625
Um, pro professional moment,

958
00:41:31.685 --> 00:41:33.685
but I have to go back to the military, you know, um,

959
00:41:34.265 --> 00:41:38.985
you know, I, I don't say this lightly or,

960
00:41:39.045 --> 00:41:40.585
or for any kind of accolades,

961
00:41:40.585 --> 00:41:42.665
but you know, my last deployment,

962
00:41:42.765 --> 00:41:45.385
we had about 360 combat missions

963
00:41:45.385 --> 00:41:47.865
and not a single, uh, soldier was wounded or killed.

964
00:41:48.485 --> 00:41:51.145
Wow. Um, previous deployments that wasn't the case.

965
00:41:51.605 --> 00:41:53.985
But it, you know, you, when you deploy, when you,

966
00:41:53.985 --> 00:41:55.825
when you go overseas, you, you gather

967
00:41:55.845 --> 00:41:58.105
and you, you're kind of with the, with your families

968
00:41:58.105 --> 00:41:59.945
and husbands and wives and kids.

969
00:41:59.945 --> 00:42:02.745
And I had a few children of my soldiers walk up to me and,

970
00:42:02.745 --> 00:42:04.505
and really say, you know, you know, at the time I,

971
00:42:04.585 --> 00:42:07.545
I was the NCYC of the, of the, um, the command, the,

972
00:42:07.925 --> 00:42:10.625
the combat commander for Baghdad's, uh, security detail.

973
00:42:11.365 --> 00:42:14.185
And, um, it said, you know, Sergeant Bell, please,

974
00:42:14.185 --> 00:42:16.025
please bring my, bring bring my father home.

975
00:42:16.645 --> 00:42:21.025
And I don't think, um, anything will rival the relief I felt

976
00:42:21.045 --> 00:42:23.305
and pride I felt that they all came home.

977
00:42:25.475 --> 00:42:27.755
I not cannot argue with that. That is amazing.

978
00:42:27.755 --> 00:42:29.595
And thank you again for your service, Rick.

979
00:42:30.015 --> 00:42:31.635
So very much appreciated.

980
00:42:32.175 --> 00:42:34.115
And, uh, this has been an amazing conversation.

981
00:42:34.295 --> 00:42:37.315
Uh, I think very insightful on where the opportunities are

982
00:42:37.315 --> 00:42:38.595
for fleet management companies.

983
00:42:39.015 --> 00:42:42.315
Um, that's within grasp. It's not impossible, right?

984
00:42:42.735 --> 00:42:46.515
The technology is there. Um, just you need the will.

985
00:42:46.935 --> 00:42:49.435
It, it's, uh, it's comes down to the will

986
00:42:49.495 --> 00:42:51.915
and the willingness to, to get it done.

987
00:42:52.455 --> 00:42:55.425
Opportunities there, just, just seizes it

988
00:42:55.565 --> 00:42:56.945
and put down the fear and,

989
00:42:57.405 --> 00:42:59.725
and, um, great things can

990
00:42:59.725 --> 00:43:01.045
happen. You know, and work together.

991
00:43:01.355 --> 00:43:02.965
Work together. You gotta break down some of the barriers

992
00:43:02.965 --> 00:43:03.765
between different companies

993
00:43:04.105 --> 00:43:05.085
and just say, let's work together.

994
00:43:05.705 --> 00:43:07.245
Um, it's for the greater good.

995
00:43:07.265 --> 00:43:08.925
And, and I don't say that lightly.

996
00:43:09.155 --> 00:43:10.725
It's, that's, that's gonna have to happen.

997
00:43:12.485 --> 00:43:13.975
Amen. Well, thank you so much

998
00:43:13.975 --> 00:43:15.455
for your time, Rick, and Thank you, mark.

999
00:43:15.715 --> 00:43:17.415
Uh, this has been great. So until next time,

1000
00:43:18.505 --> 00:43:20.455
Thank you very much. Appreciate being here.

1001
00:43:21.115 --> 00:43:22.855
Thanks for listening to the Mile Marker podcast.

1002
00:43:23.275 --> 00:43:25.495
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